how can people use these visual patching editors? they are so hard to use and make everything really over complicated

@scott I admit I love visual patching editors but I do end up having to do a lot of extra "gardening" to end up with something parseable

@eyesack this toot was definitely borne of today's patching frustration in SparkAR heh... in reflection, of course, Max was definitely a thing i used to like :p today, after not having to do much visual patching for awhile i definitely found myself suddenly very unproductive:/

@scott hmm max has a lot of quality of life features that have been built over time, maybe that's not so common in other tools?

@scott but also I'm just kind of fascinated with this topic because I've noticed over and over again that people who are good at coding tend to get really frustrated by visual programming when I'm the exact opposite, and I don't know what to make of that!

@eyesack yeah, I'm also quite interested in why some find it so much easier to engage with code rather than visual patching. I think there is a looming feeling that what I am building in visual patches is a house of cards and that I'm quickly painting myself into a corner which has always been a frustration from the start of my journey into doing programmed art stuff and results in an artistic block when I hit that moment.

@eyesack that being said, when looking at DSP stuff I prefer to look at a signal flow diagram paired with the code or equation, but then I think the signal flow diagrams there allow for some blurriness and assumptions whereas in a patching language things have to be explicit.

@eyesack and a third thought... having built visual patching systems, it is definitely the case that visual patching requires you to understand the idiom/mindset of the developer of that patching system which is pretty interesting. my spark ar thing i just finished definitely had a learning hurdle entirely related to understanding the mental framework of the system and once I got that, things were a little bit easier (ok but sparkar dev experience is actually really bad too)

@scott I think this is weirdly one things I like about visual patching languages... feels more "honest" or something about how tech guides your actions and it feels like a negotiation or collaboration with the system

@eyesack interesting! i would definitely agree it is much more a collaboration. but more a collab with the abstractions of the author rather than the tech. in this case the actual tech lies far below many layers of abstraction and indirection designed by the author. bytebeat might be a better collaboration w/ tech example in that respect i think.

@scott I guess I think almost all collabs with tech are secretly collabs with other people by proxy...

@scott yeah I have almost no patience for these kinds of tools these days.

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